Got home from another Wed night and Bunny and I had a long talk about what she perceives the kids and youth know of faith and the Bible, combined with my little talk with the adults last night on functional atheism.
So I went to bed praying about changes and woke up with it still on my mind.
I have a blank sheet of paper in front of me. Limiting this to discipleship and not veering off to preaching, fellowship etc...
What programs/structure/benchmarks/times and venues would you draw up if you were starting from scratch?
For children
For youth
For adults
And what would you use for a curriculum in large or small group situations?
I'm really trying to get a handle on what I need to see getting done wherever God has me in this area.
I know, I know - but this is really important to me. I got to the point in Romans 4 last night and realized that precious few have anything like the faith of Abraham.
Just a note, if you are looking for info on Bill Martin, formerly at FBC McMinnville, or need to contact Bill, LMK by email.
The way Jesus did it:
ReplyDelete72 (real life, basic principles)
12 (Worker Development)
3 (Leader Development)
At ALL age levels. Yes, you should be developing leaders in the preschool department.
Life-centered, Bible as curriculum.
Get away from the idea of buying discipleship. DO discipleship.
-- Bill Martin, FBC McMinnville TN
so flesh that out - when do they happen? Where do they happen? Are you counting the Sunday morning message as the "72" time?
ReplyDeleteSunday morning message is the crowd. Evangelism. NOT discipleship, except for those who are involved in making it happen.
ReplyDeleteSunday night and/or "believer's service" whenever it is -- 72
12 & 3 -- The whenever and wherever are whatever works best for the purpose. Get away from the Broadman scheduler's manual (unless it happens to work for your people). Do what works best.
The "3" should probably NOT be on Sunday. Should probably be a lot less formal than a sit-down class.
And, yes, for kids and less-mature youth, the "3" stuff is homework with parents leading. (But you've got to equip the parents. You can't just dump this on them.)
--Bill Martin FBC McMinnville
I'm so with you in this conversation. A few weeks ago I drove home from church, realizing that I'm not sure we're really making disciples the way Jesus intends for us to. In part it was an indictment of my leadership. But I think the greater part that I sensed was that people just don't seem to care to be made into disciples either.
ReplyDeleteI've tried so many different avenues for it, and found repeatedly that it dwindles down to just a few. My gut tells me that discipleship should happen in one-to-one relationships and really small groups of people. That's where you can get into the meat of your life with someone else and strip down all the nonsense.
I thought about three elements of discipleship and phrased them for my own purpose in terms of "story". The first is an immersion into the story of the scriptures. The back story if you will. What has gone on before and what has God been up to in human history. The second was that based on what we see there in the back story we should be in conversations with God and with a few others to talk about ways that we can shape our character so that it flows in line with God's story. The third is that we should figure out ways to advance the plot. I'm experimenting now with a small group of friends with whom I'm trying to conspire to be on mission with Jesus to the world, advancing the Kingdom.
So, that was the big idea on my blank sheet. How to implement it, I'm not sure, but I have some suspicions. I might share some later, but I'd love to hear the other contributions.
Keith McNamar - AG Pastor
You're both completely right. I'm shortwinded cuz I'm holding a sleeping munchkin.
ReplyDeleteAll I'm saying is that it's got to end up in the homes for the younger to get it. That means changing parents and then, as Bill says, equipping them to lead there.
It can't be the church that does the programming for them. I don't think anyone here thinks that, but I have a tendency to pressure myself to do the discipling when it's got to be passed on from parents.
Sad but true that the huge majority of times when we get a young one that is given the tools, the home front environment wins out.
--- Tim Fowler, SBC Pastor, AL
quote:
ReplyDeleteThey're not supposed to be. You're supposed to MAKE rabbis./endquote from Bill
Circular logic is wonderful, isn't it? And my ability to act as straight man is still intact. Now if we just get a "where is the Holy Spirit in all this? we'll be good to go. emoticon
many many single parents whose kids come but they don't. Some other two parents families - ditto. Military people who work two jobs and move every two years. Retirees who work.blended and stirred families.
except for the military I expect you see the same. People (the good ones we all want out there in front of us, are shockingly materialistic, have their kids involved in multiple after school events, and if they do come, put in an hour on Sunday) don't have time.
Bottom line - people don't love Jesus. And they don't believe in the God who raises the dead and creates out of nothing.
/rant off
So Bill, you suggest Sunday morning as evangelistic and have a believer's service (sounds like Willow), have small groups studying the Bible, and discipleship triads.
like it or not, our primary job is to make disciples of people who don't know or care about Jesus yet. Short time frames? Everybody's got them among child-bearing age families. Mobility isn't just about military families anymore.
ReplyDeleteSo, it's not circular logic. The making of disciples has to start somewhere -- and I suggest that it's not with the 3-year old.
It's with the 3-year old's parents.
Invest your life in them. Two or three at a time. And let it grow from there.
Better to be incredibly effective with three than to be utterly ineffective with 400. (And Jesus did it with three.) In three years or less.
--- Bill Martin FBC McMinnville TN
here's the obvious - I'm not Jesus, and these aren't apostles.
ReplyDeleteI think you'd have to go out from that into people who the apostles discipled for any modeling to take place.
What's the name of the black SBC guy from TX who is doing the family model of discipleship? He spoke at the convention... Voddie something?
Not arguing at all Bill, really trying here to learn. Bout ready to blow it up here, or if I move with a mandate, set things right from the getgo.
quote:
Sad but true that the huge majority of times when we get a young one that is given the tools, the home front environment wins out. /endquote from Tim Fowler
And since the vast majority of parents aren't coming, I've seen that played out a dozen times so far. Kids who I really felt "got it" either fell away or left for a local "happening youth ministry" (with a history of DUIs, suicides, etc. among their youth - but they have Wiis and plasma screens)
I don't mean to be crabby. But there are TONS of reasons why this won't work. If we want a justification for doing nothing, we've got plenty of them.
ReplyDeleteBut . . . it all starts with one. If you had two dozen families with a head-of-household ready to be discipled, it would be difficult to figure out which one to work with. As it is, you've probably got one or two or three who are RIPE and HUNGRY to grow. You don't have to choose. God already has.
Find them. Invest in them. Do your absolute BEST work with those two or three. Teach them to repeat the process with those one or two or three that God draws to their attention. Let the chain reaction begin.
That's the deal.
Remember, the apostles were just regular guys. Fishermen. Tax collectors. Political zealots. Regular guys. They weren't "Apostles" when Jesus started with them. They were like us. We've got the Holy Spirit to empower this stuff and we've got no excuses.
--- Bill Martin, FBC McMinnville TN
I'd add a related thought...it's about people, not programs. I really believe that. There a hundred different programs you could try, it's about our ability to stir up a genuine hunger in people for really following Jesus. I think that happens most frequently and effectively in personal settings.
ReplyDeleteAnd I agree with Bill - "our primary job is to make disciples of people who don't know or care about Jesus yet." - Keith McNamar, AG Pastor
.....processing....
ReplyDeletereally not looking at programs, unless it's one the Holy Spirit lays on my heart for the people in my care
really not looking for excuses either, just getting the specs on the raw material out there
beginning to realize another reason why people plant - it reduces the complexity of the problems you need to deal with. Every decision I make on this will ripple though and force other decisions and every decision that impacts present day events, routines and structures will bring push in contact with shove.
Keith, I might be tracking philosophically better with you than anyone else re - the big picture.
Love to hear from Troy and Henry - opposite spectrums on what they see the advantages and weaknesses of what they do.
There's another danger: If you do this well in a church that just doesn't get it (i.e., UDC or similar), the people you grow will PROBABLY leave your lame-gluteal church. If they develop a real passion for following Christ in a church that impedes that, they're gone.
ReplyDeleteI can send you a short list of names as proof. Said one, "I have become convinced that this church is actually an impediment to a person following Christ. I've got to go."
He was and is right.
quote:
ReplyDeletedacrab wrote:
Bottom line - people don't love Jesus. And they don't believe in the God who raises the dead and creates out of nothing.
I do. But I am frustrated by the lack of growth among the people of my congregation. Some truly get it, some get it 1/2 the time, others are just doing time.
But I wonder if we've lost the notion of discipleship as a process? Do we want (or expect?) results to come about immediately? Discipleship's a long, long road . . . it lasts a person's whole life. Not only that, but it's something that a person has to commit themselves to. Can't just suck them in with "relevant" messages and then hold them against their will until they become willing disciples. And neither can we make disciples with nothing more than fluffy "relevant" messages, even if we do have smokin-hot worship.
Troy Neujahr, Lutheran Pastor
Thinking further, but disconnected from the earlier post, thoughts:
ReplyDeleteI believe in the Jesus method of discipleship that Bill mentioned earlier: take about 3 guys and intensely mentor them as your inner circle.
But how do you get those guys? When I've approached people here--even the people that want to grow and are good and active members--they view it as "just one more thing I've got to do" and reject the notion as being time-consuming. Nobody seems to want to meet regularly, rub elbows w/one another and grow in Christ except for me and my pastor buddy across town, and that doesn't do much good for my people or his. Just us.
Small groups are a pretty good way to get things going, but even then I wonder, "Who disciples the disciplers?" Who's going to disciple the group leaders to help them stay on track so that they can help others stay on track? They don't have much interest in being in one small group so that they may lead another.
Gets me to thinking: Where did Jesus find His disciples? What were the circumstances in their life that made them prime discipleship candidates? I don't know that the Scripture teaches us enough about that. Maybe that's deliberate, so that we must keep going into "all the world" to find them instead of looking for a particular type of person.
Finally, here's what I've noticed works best in my context:
The few people that I can think of as being genuine disciples (meaning not perfect people but redeemed Christians with a heart for God and a desire to grow in Christ) are people that have either formally or informally hung around the pastor.
One guy was a favorite of the old pastor here, and he's one of the few (only?) guys who would show up for congregational stuff like prayer meetings or sending off the youth on a trip w/o having some obligation to be there (know what I mean? He didn't HAVE to be there, and yet he was. I ended up recommending he be placed in the council as a church leader because of that attitude). That guy's growing and active today, and he really has a fond place for the role the previous pastor took in his life.
The other guy I think of is a guy that was away from the church for most of his adult life and came back--coincidentally--the first Sunday I was here. He and his family were the first people that I personally taught and brought in as new members. Over time we became friends and have had a number of opportunities to talk and share and grow together. I can't claim that I'm the only reason for his growth--he's got a hunger and a thirst that reaches far beyond my influence and regularly listens to a variety of Christian podcasts--but I can see a bit of myself reflected in him, which is the mark of discipleship, IMO.
Now both of those guys are active in serving the Kingdom. One volunteers in a different church for their program w/autistic kids. The other leads our teen small group. They're serving the Body and, I believe, making disciples. In time I hope that their disciples will, in turn, make others. And in 2-3 generations there will be a great number of disciples and hopefully a great number of those will be helping this church continue to grow.
I just don't know how to reach more people--and reach them in depth--NOW.
. . . still processing . . .
--Troy Neujahr, Lutheran Pastor
quote:
ReplyDeletedacrab wrote:
quote:
Can't just suck them in with "relevant" messages and then hold them against their will until they become willing disciples. And neither can we make disciples with nothing more than fluffy "relevant" messages, even if we do have smokin-hot worship
shoot
new sheet of paper
Well, you know, I saw this in some ways at my old church back in NE. Great church in a number of respects. Can't doubt the integrity and commitment of the pastors. Huge worship attendance and a smokin-hot worship band--the best I'd ever seen (and, incidentally, the best band I'd ever played in). Relevant messages that applied to people's lives today. Good Gospel content and Christ-focused ministry.
But I knew people in that church who were incredibly committed, some who were marginally committed, and some who just snuck in on Sunday for a rockin' service and then snuck right back out.
The people who wanted to grow as disciples made sure that they did. The people who didn't get it couldn't be convinced of their need despite all the external trappings. They were there, maybe even regularly . . . but not growing.
I wonder sometimes if the truly hungry disciple doesn't just eat up whatever teaching he's given. You know, if a guy is truly hungry, does it matter if the preacher's in a hawaiian shirt or a necktie? Does it matter if there's a band or an organ? Because from what I've seen (or been), when you're hungry for the Word, you'll devour it wherever it's served regardless of what else happens in worship/church, because that's the one thing you really came for.
And yeah . . . come to think of it . . . I've also been the guy that came for the smokin-hot worship only to get a little tired of it in a few years. What was once new and exciting became routine after a period, and that "I'm close to God" feeling that a big worship band gave me began to wear thin, after a while . . . - Troy Neujahr
... well, then I have maybe 8 like that Troy. People who get what I feel we're trying to get done here - who we've hung out with the most - who show up with ideas on how to make a bigger impact and who seem to want to keep growing. Four couples, all deacons and their wives.
ReplyDeleteOther two deacons are good guys, one is 80 though and not able to do much because of his health. The other is certainly a servant and his wife is too, but not really "attached" to me in a discipleship mode.
I have the best deacon body I've ever had as a result.
what that means in the church at large though isn't that much in terms of reproduction. All but two of the deacons are 50+. One of the younger ones is reproducing, the other isn't as outgoing or secure in that.
...processing
Benchmarks is what's got me thinking. What's the benchmark for discipleship? I alluded to that earlier: I think "discipleship" is happening when the student starts to reflect the thoughts/attitudes/words/faith of the teacher (and yeah, obviously before we get too far down that road, we need to acknowledge that the teacher's stuff should be looking quite a bit like Jesus).
ReplyDeleteSo what's that look like? I mean, are there external signs so that we can say, "This guy is a disciple"? Are the most important marks of a disciple even external to begin with?
I'm thinking about this . . . I really am. I don't want to talk about programs too much just yet before I get a better handle on the fundamental question of "What does a disciple look like?" After that point it'll be a lot better--and easier--for me to say, "These are the times, venues, etc., that I'd employ." --- Troy Neujahr, Lutheran Pastor
Darn it all . . . I KNEW I didn't want to check this thread. Got other stuff to do, and not getting it done now because I'm gettin' all excited about discipleship!
ReplyDelete"What's a disciple look like?"
Here's what I see:
1) Disciple hears Jesus when He says, "Come follow me." He walks--metaphorically--where Jesus walks. That means into persecution, into hardship, but also into surprising victories.
2) Disciple follows Jesus, continued: Disciple prays. Disciple has a heart for--and goes into--the community to get to know them so that he may more aptly apply the message "The Kingdom is near."
3) Disciple makes us of the things that God uses to make disciples. For us, that means Word and Sacrament. Can't be an authentic disciple if you don't get both of those regularly. To clarify, that means that a disciple doesn't forsake the gathering together. He's a regular and active participant in corporate worship and acknowledges and appreciates God's gifts given through that unique setting.
4) Disciple begins to have a heart for other potential disciples. He sees people that used to be where he was--lost and blind--and wants more than anything to help them be found and have their sight restored.
Not sure that these are in the proper--or any--order, but I do believe that they are all important. -- Troy Neujahr
What I did was get together the 5 I had in my case. I told them I wanted to pour something of my life into them, and I wanted us to, together, make an impact on the Kingdom. I want them to catch my passion to a greater degree. I'm trying to figure out the right way for this to work, but here's the sketch:
ReplyDeleteOnce a month we meet on Sunday night for immersion into the Scriptures. This is our opportunity to dig into the back story and try to hear what God is saying to us through it.
Second (this is a missing piece I'd like to add as a result of what I'm hearing here) we have some ongoing conversation out of that time that's based on developing our character to better reflect what we saw in the scriptures. This is where you get into the deep, probing kinds of questions about the real ways I need to change. I'm thinking this could be done virtually (a blog, or forum of some kind) or face to face depending on the time we can invest.
Then lastly, about once a month we meet together to plan some kind of missional project. This gets us out and doing something with what we're learning. This is our way to advance the plot of the Kingdom into the world, to bring the story to a wider group of people.
--- Keith McNamar - AG Pastor
Troy, your post made me think of something I heard a while back - I think originated with George Hunter, but was passed on to me by Alex McManus. It was the four "turnings" of the human heart in order to become a Christ follower.
ReplyDelete1. A turning to Jesus Christ as Lord
2. A turning to some kind of Christ-following community
3. A turning to the Scriptures
4. A turning back to the world on mission with Jesus
He says he believes they can happen in any order, which makes sense to me actually. - Keith McNamar
So how does this trickle down to youth and children?
ReplyDeleteJust for a frame of reference we have -
SS (age graded)
Bible Drill memory group (up to 6th grade)
youth group on Wed night (3- middle school, high school, college and career)
children's groups on wed night - 2 (K-2, 3-6)
maybe it's the teachers/venue/ method but I ain't seeing it happening
quote:
ReplyDeletedacrab wrote: Bout ready to blow it up here, or if I move with a mandate, set things right from the getgo.
hola all. great stuff. would love to ramble on this, as I have been eating, sleeping and breathing this very stuff for a number of weeks. lots of incredible stuff happening and lessons learned, but i am slammed right now (2 msgs, a funeral, a seminar to prep, and a quarterly event we are having this Sunday that will focus on the subj of discipleship).
i'll say this and maybe get to open up some more later, but after many years of doing an excellent job of creating consumers, i blew this church up a while back (June, 06). hence the lessons learned.
maybe can talk more later... back late tonight from worship team practice, or tomorrow. But given this has already run up 4 pages, you guys will probably be done by the time I get to it, but at least want to say I enjoyed speedreading the thread.
mas tarde, hermanos!
--- Henry Harris, Rolling Hills Community Church, CA
quote:
ReplyDeleteHenry Harris wrote:
i'll say this and maybe get to open up some more later, but after many years of doing an excellent job of creating consumers, i blew this church up a while back (June, 06). hence the lessons learned./ endquote
Then Troy wrote:
So . . . maybe Barna IS right, at least on one minor point: that in the interest of spreading the Gospel, the church growth movement created a generation of consumer Christians.
I think it was the perfect storm of a cultural shift away from responsibility, puritan values, etc and a secular and materialist fire sale.
ReplyDeletePeople who think like marketers see that and go ape crazy meeting "felt needs" and see churches explode with growth and race is on.
The "product"? No one really looks at that as long as the place is rocking.
You know, for me I'm totally amazed at how far away from that thinking I've moved in just a few years. 1/2 decade ago I would have most definitely been on the bandwagon of felt needs as THE way to grow a church.
ReplyDeleteI like to think I've matured. I'm scared to think I'm just following the latest trend.
Probably a bit of both. -- Troy
Nothing wrong with felt needs Troy, but if people come away without realizing that their deepest need can only be met through repentance, confession, and faith in Jesus Christ...
ReplyDeletewe have blown it, big time.
Marriage is important.
Purity for teens is important.
Financial health is important.
Parenting is important.
All those felt needs matter.
But they are NOT the gate we all must walk through. That is the narrow way, and only after that can we put everything in perspective and understand what really matters. Only then can we really help someone in their needs in a way far more powerful than the self help and human potential gurus can. It's not our words, or worship - it's the power of God within the believer that can create change and that can only be released through faith - again as Abraham had - in a God who can raise the dead and create something out of nothing.
Anything other than that kind of a POV might be well intentioned, but IMHO - will fail.
o, you'd say (as would I) that "felt needs" are to be used to illustrate how incomplete one's life is w/o Christ.
ReplyDeleteOr, to put it another way, "felt needs" demonstrate how we are unable to fix our own lives, and therefore we must look to the One who can.
--- Troy
I have a felt need for a sports car. 400+ horsepower, please.
ReplyDeleteWhile that "felt need" may well indicate that my REAL need is Christ (the something that is missing is NOT a sports car), it will be extremely difficult to get a lost person to draw that connection. Christ followers? Sure (and even many of us may be dubious).
"Felt needs" drew crowds just as "free beer" would. Somewhat tragically, I don't think most of those who were drawn to it ever made the connection. I think some folks invented the connection in order to justify a consumerist approach to drawing a crowd.
-- Bill Martin
So we gave in and now we have churches full of people who have no real love for Jesus and no real faith in God - unless everything is going well and they don't need Him.
ReplyDeletequote:
ReplyDeleteBillMartin wrote:
I think some folks invented the connection in order to justify a consumerist approach to drawing a crowd.
Troy replied:
If you were right, I'd agree with you. emoticon
Think: Jesus. What needs did He address? Often felt needs, weren't they?
Like I already said, I think it can go wrong. I just don't think that we should broad-brush it all as being unbiblical.
And when they don't get their own way, they get cranky. Just as they do in line at WalMart when their brand new Wii blows up.
ReplyDelete-- Bill Martin
quote:
ReplyDeletedacrab wrote:
So we gave in and now we have churches full of people who have no real love for Jesus and no real faith in God - unless everything is going well and they don't need Him.
Troy Replied:
Question: Has it ever been any different?
I'm preaching on Exodus 17 this Sunday: water from the rock.
Looks like even way back when the pews were filled with unbelieving people that still claimed to be called by God's name.